"I will support and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic." --U.S. Armed Forces Oath of Enlistment and Office
Today is the day Americans pause to honor our veterans, past, present, and future.
Instead of the pointless and mindless slogan "Support The Troops" (Duh, who doesn't support the troops? Is there such thing as an "Oppose The Troops" movement?), FreeThinker proposes that we recognize that veterans are caring Americans serving their country. What they may be directed to do is another issue entirely, but today isn't "Blindly Support Presidential/Congressional/Judicial Military Decrees Day." Laws are opinions. Veterans are people.
Another absurd slogan is "There are no Atheists in Foxholes." Supposedly, in the heat of battle, with death imminent, a soldier will cry out to a god even if he or she was not previously a believer. This is simply untrue, and frankly, insulting to our non-believing soldiers. In contrast to believers, atheists put their country before any god. Moreover, the notion that when one is near death -- vulnerable, helpless, scared, and weak -- one will desperately cry out to a supernatural being underscores that strong and empowered people don't need divine intervention. So isn't the crux of this slogan that belief in a god is based on fear and helpless desperation?
There are Atheist in Foxholes, just as there are atheists in the office, in school, in the neighborhood, in the family -- everywhere. According to the Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers, there are 4,332 Active Duty Atheists and 112,166 with no religious affiliation reported in the U.S. military.
There is a modest memorial specifically for Atheist Veterans, adorned with emblems of all branches of the U.S. Armed Forces. The "Atheists in Foxholes" monument is adjacent to the Willa Mae Whatley Auditorium in Fearn Park, overlooking Lake Hypatia, Alabama. Inscribed on the front of the monument is:ATHEISTS IN FOXHOLES
AND COUNTLESS
FREETHINKERS
WHO HAVE SERVED THIS COUNTRY
WITH HONOR AND DISTINCTION
The United States was founded on principles that protect freedom of -- and freedom from -- religion. This is part of the Constitutional values our veterans support and defend.
Let's remember all our veterans, and the diversity of their religious beliefs -- or lack thereof.
20 comments:
Wow. Now I know why you crapped on my Veterans Day post. Congratulations on posting without even knowing whether I am religious or not.
THINK before you post.
I agree with you regarding honoring ALL veterans. Where do you get this silly notion that myself and others honor only those of religious faith? Point me in their direction so that I can give them a verbal lashing.
Instead of the pointless and mindless slogan "Support The Troops" (Duh, who doesn't support the troops? Is there such thing as an "Oppose The Troops" movement?)
Yup, there is. You ask this vet what it means to say, "I support the troops, but not the mission":
Clicky, clicky
cool post
Cheers!
Here's to free thinking!
Wordsmith - Crapped on your post? Is that what you call simply asking that ALL veterans be remembered? And you know very well that non-believers are given short shrift in society and especially in today's military. And sorry, we don't buy the specious argument that opposing the war is the same as opposing the troops.
Calzone - The dragon approves, no?
Haunted - The freethinking of one age is the common sense of the next. -- Matthew Arnold, 1875
Well said free. This day should be about the men and women who served regardless of where and when. Regardless of their beliefs, ethnicity and such. Their service to the nation is what counts.
Freethinker,
Honestly can't find anything that I would necessarily disagree with in this post. All in all it's very good.
However, I did bop over and read your dialogue with wordsmith on his joke about the seal and the atheist professor. How is that any different than your link to the Landover Baptist Church site. I see no difference. Perhaps wordsmith was correct, you only found offensive because you were on the recieveing end.
Please don't hear me wrong. I don't align myself with the likes of Jeery Falwell, James Dopson or anyone else on TBN. There are followers of Christ who are able to have intelligent conversations about the world and how best we can live in harmony together. I am leery of those who take an elitest stance. I fear that you have done the same but in the exact opposite direction. I understand why, but I don't necessarily agree with it. I wonder if the Jesus I know is the same Jesus you have heard about. I agree with Ghandi when he said, "I would be a follower of Christ if it weren't for Christians." Sadly, we Christians suck. We don't represent our Savior well and we are fallible.
I apologize for rambling, but I feel I needed to confess some things to you on behalf of my faith. Please remember...we Christians suck.
Supporting our troops in Iraq is the right thing to do. But supporting the policy that sent them there is quite another thing.
I would agree that there have probably been many atheists in fox holes. I would also agree that fear is something that leads people to belief. Belief in God is for the humble, those who feel their need and brokenness. These God can heal and make whole. Many may come to know God in a foxhole because the do feel appropriate fear and mortality, but certainly many may still shake their fist at the sky or not cry out at all.
Regardless, I am thankful to ALL service men and women for their service!
Is there such thing as an "Oppose The Troops" movement?
I think if you talk to some Vietnam Vets they will tell you there definitely seemed to be a feeling of an Oppose The Troops movement upon their return.
FreeThinker,
I do agree that all veterans should be recognized for their service to their country. And I do see how it would be insulting to you (and other atheists) when it is said that "there are no atheists in foxholes." I certainly think there are -- although there seems to be an awful lot of people that reconsider their positions when faced with their own death.
I would like to agree with what Adam Caldwell said about those of us that are Christians. We unfortunately do a very poor job of representing the God we claim to follow. I wonder if we Christians were more consistent with what we claimed to believe (and were actually open to honest, thoughtful dialogue) if there would be less people turned off by the Christian faith.
I read the "Santa Clause" post you sent me the link for. I'm not sure what to do with it, though. It does explain what it's like for an atheists, but I'm still not seeing compelling evidence that God DOESN'T exist. I do think that there is compelling reasons to believe in the Christian faith (and I respect that you may disagree with that evidence), but how can we possibly be absolutely certain that a supreme being doesn't exist? Wouldn't we have to have ALL knowledge to truly eliminate this possibility? Would you say you're certain that God doesn't exist or that you just haven't seen good evidence that it is so?
I've never understand the logic (or lack thereof) that not supporting the policies that sent our troops to Iraq in any way equates with not supporting our troops.
well written and well thought out pos.t
Radio - Absolutely. My post was about veterans as people with diverse beliefs who share a common goal of defending the country. Of course, there are a million side issues that can sprout from this ...
Adam - If you replace "atheist" with "Christian" in Wordsmith's joke, you'd be offended too. But I'm sure you like a good (non-violent) joke about Christians, even if Christianity is the butt of the joke, as I enjoy the joke about the atheist and the bear. Sure, the atheist gets slaughtered by the bear, but the absurdity of a talking bear and a real god is what makes the joke funny. This is why the Landover Baptist Church site is so hilarious. A whole website lampooning atheism simply would not work because there's nothing absurd about atheism.
Dolf - It's a shame so many politicians and voters (both Republicans and Democrats) "supported the policy that sent them there." Now we have quite the mess to clean up.
Aaron - Anyone in a foxhole who "shakes their fist at the sky" is already a believer, angry at their god, and thus not an "atheist in a foxhole." The atheist in a foxhole would be calling a human for help on his radio!
BH - This is a whole other story. Have a seat. The tales of returning Vietnam Veterans being spit on or otherwise "opposed" is considered to be an urban myth. This was a long time ago, too far back for my own experience, but I have talked to Vietnam Vets and "hippie war protesters" from this era, and no one recalls anything like an "Oppose the Troops" movement. (Perhaps there were some incidents, but a broad "movement?") Where are the photos? The articles? The news reports? From either the Vietnam war of the current Iraq war? Conservatives want to believe this really happened, because it bolsters their cliché "Support The Troops." In war, you dehumanize the enemy, and this myth makes the peacemongers - then and now - look like the enemy, and takes the focus away from the real issue of the war itself.
Scott - Thanks for acknowledging that there ARE atheists in foxholes. I'm grateful to have had this opportunity to dissect this old canard, and to get people thinking about it. There are similar urban legends about "deathbed conversions" such as Charles Darwin's last words being a recanting of his evolution theory and/or converting to Christianity. Again, not true. The link I sent you is an excellent article, What It's Like To Be An Atheist. (Today's "sequel" is Why I'm An Atheist - see this for perspective on why he DOESN'T believe, and remember that no one atheist can speak for all atheists, just as no one Christian can speak for all Christians.) You expressed an interest in what atheists think, and these articles pretty much sum it up. The author of these articles uses the analogy of Santa Claus. To paraphrase your words, can we possibly be absolutely certain that Santa Claus doesn't exist? Wouldn't we have to have ALL knowledge to truly eliminate this possibility? Would you say you're certain that Santa doesn't exist or that you just haven't seen good evidence that it is so? You can't provide compelling evidence that Santa DOESN'T exist. Yet we still disbelieve in Santa. Apply this logic -- your logic -- to any supernatural being, and you can see why I don't believe in gods. Or Santa.
Zhadi - Perhaps it's a sign of desperation of the warmongers? Fact is, those who oppose the WAR are steadily growing as the body count grows.
Though I agree with some of your comments, I have to say that my uncle was a Vietnam Vet and personally experienced the acts you described as well as many others. So did his family members that were with him when he was wearing his uniform, as did several of his friends upon their return. For the record, this was in the "conservative" part of the country.
My only point is that whether or not you agree with the troops fighting somewhere is no reason to treat them like garbage when they come home. I believe most people feel this way. Is my belief in supporting the troops because I was raised in a military family? Perhaps. However, I'd prefer to think that it is because I was raised that these men and women are fighting so I can continue to enjoy the freedoms I take for granted, regardless of whether I agree with the war. I simply wanted to point out that at one point in time, there were enough people around who seemed to have the attitude of "Oppose the Troops."
I meant to acknowledge that there are atheists in foxholes by saying “Not cry out at all”, meaning to God. I would assume that if you have a radio to call for help that it would be incredibly wise to use it. But kudos to you for a witty response.
BH - 35 years from now, it will be interesting to see if there will be tales of spitting, abuse, or an attitude of "oppose the troops" when we look back on the Iraq War.
This clearly is not happening now. Whether or not this really happened in the Vietnam War years, we all agree this is bad behavior.
And on a side note, today President Bush finally acknowledged there is nothing unpatriotic about opposing his Iraq strategy. "People should feel comfortable about expressing their opinions about Iraq," Bush said. "This is not an issue of who's patriotic and who's not patriotic, it's an issue of an honest, open debate about the way forward in Iraq."
Wow. Is this the same President Bush who called Iraq War critics "reprehensible" just a few days ago?
Aaron - Thanks for clarifying. I reread your earlier comment and it says it all! (BTW, is that Blogger Profile photo you, or Aaron Burr?)
In contrast to believers, atheists put their country before any god.
And that means what? That atheists are more patriotic than believers? I certainly hope thats not your assertion, because we believers uphold patriotism as a virtue as divinely inspired.
For a specifically Catholic perspective on the issue, I suggest you read What is Patriotism?
And they provide the quote from Pope Pius X:
"If Catholicism were the enemy of the country, it would no longer be a divine religion."
Moreover, the notion that when one is near death -- vulnerable, helpless, scared, and weak -- one will desperately cry out to a supernatural being underscores that strong and empowered people don't need divine intervention. So isn't the crux of this slogan that belief in a god is based on fear and helpless desperation?
That's a highly arrogant assertion to make don't you think?
No the photo is of C.H. Spurgeon. Aaron Burr was related to the great Jonathan Edwards though. But I digress. Part of what I wanted to get across and failed to was that I see no problem in saying the Christianity is for the weak. Paul said God is glorified in his weakness. James said in James 4:6
“ God resists the proud,
But gives grace to the humble.”
Christ sought out the weak. Hung out with the sick, the poor, the prostitutes etc. The powerful crucified him and he let them do it. I do not mind telling you that I need God. That is the source of my strength. So be it.
As for patriotism. I do put God before country strictly speaking. So you have a point. But my love of God overflows to my country men. So if patriotism means my country right or wrong the count us all out I am sure. If it means working to make it a better place, then I don’t think atheist or believer really makes much difference does it? I hope I am making sense.
I've heard the stories about how vietnam vets were spit on and yelled at as they came back to America. I've also heard of the stories of mean people who put razor blades in apples and gave them out at Halloween. I guess we just want to believe these are true and really happened, even tho they are sad and things we prefer never happened. Strange.
I worked with a guy that was a "atheist in a foxhole" for a short time in Vietnam.. Although, he came out with a different view of his own place in the universe, he didn't become some kind of religious fanatic. But that's why he was there.. to fight for his right to choose!
I've heard some stories about the US Air Force Academy.. it seems like your rights on the topic of religion are pretty much shaped by a "funde" group that don't understand the concept very well. "Atheists" among others just aren't welcome. Sad.
// Brian
I wanted to thank Scott Crocker for his thoughful post, too. I was going to respond, but FT said it perfectly - we don't need perfect knowledge to know certain things can't and don't exist.
And big high five to Aaron:
"If it means working to make it a better place, then I don’t think atheist or believer really makes much difference does it?" I couldn't agree more!
Christians and atheists alike both need to work together, whether it's on the enviroment, justice for all, or even (especially?) fighting the right wing fringe of Christian Fundamentalism!
-D
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